tragedy

Pub Theology Recap June 16

one tasty beverage

Whose idea is it to recap a discussion on theology over beer a week later?  Not a great idea.

But here goes anyway.

These were last week’s topics, and I’ll do my best to give a couple thoughts that were expressed:

1.    What is your favorite part about summer?

2.    How does one move forward after a tragedy?  How do you explain it?

3.    Is history science or art?  (See recent Paul Revere revisionism)

4.    “Children are bad at lying for the same reason that adults are. We are born with a conscience (which is God’s voice in our soul) that says it is wrong for us to bear false witness.”

5.    The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man.

6.  “The point of the universe is the hallowing of God’s name.”

Favorite parts about summer: no socks, the beach, SUNSHINE!, garden parties, SUNSHINE! and so on…  in short – we’ve waited a long time for summer, and woohoo!  it’s here!

Topic no.2 was a much more sobering one, given the tragedy with Carly Lewis, a local teenager who was killed in Traverse City.

How do you move forward after something like this?  How do you explain it?

Most said that there is no explaining a tragedy, other than giving the straightforward account of what happened:  so-and-so did this, and so-and-so did that, and X or Y was the result.  It sucks, but that is what happened.  Most felt it was beyond us, or even inappropriate, to try to give any larger philosophical or speculative explanations about the bigger picture.

That said, many felt that what is most important is how one responds to a tragedy.  One can wallow in it, perhaps even remain paralyzed by it.  One can find something deep inside that they didn’t have before.  One can find communal support that he or she wasn’t aware of before.  And one can perhaps be a source of help for others experiencing similar difficult situations.

But much of that is down the road.  The immediate reality is grief, shock, anger – raw emotion.  And no one can tell anyone else how they ought to respond to such things.

Some personal stories were shared around this topic, and I think it was a meaningful and important time to spend together.

Topic no.3:  is history science or art?  Did Paul Revere ring bells while warning the British about American weapons?

Here’s a re-enactment by Stephen Colbert of Paul Revere’s famous midnight ride:

OK, it’s not letting me embed.  Here’s the link:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/388583/june-06-2011/paul-revere-s-famous-ride

4.  We noted that children are actually quite decent at lying, and adults perhaps even moreso.  But what does lying say about someone?  And have you ever experienced someone blatantly lying to you and you knew it?  What did you do?

5.  Everyone agreed this quote was bunk.

6.  One person responded: “I don’t think that is the point of the universe.”  Then he rephrased, “Or maybe that’s part of it – but it isn’t the whole thing.”  What do you think?

Pub Theology Recap Feb 24

Brewing up discussion

A nice night of discussion at Right Brain Brewery, with old and new friends, and a nice pint of Pie Whole – brewed with a whole apple pie from Grand Traverse Pie Company – a nice applely, caramelly, pumpkiny brew.  Discussion was so good, that we only hit the first three of seven topics.  We’ll hold some over for next week.

Topics for the night:

good / bad

amulets

meaning

sasquatch

Longer version:

1.    Ancient proverb:  “Every time something bad happens, something good happens as well.”
Does it?  Why?  What is your experience?

2.    The oldest known Hebrew Bible texts are silver amulets dated to about the mid-seventh century BCE.  Amulets were worn as charms against evil or injury.  Compare to usage(s) of the text today.

3.  “Much desire to seek after God is nothing of the sort.  For instance, to seek God for eternal life is to seek eternal life, while to seek God for a meaningful existence is to seek a meaningful existence.”
What does it mean to truly seek God?


OK so we didn’t really talk about sasquatch.  At least not for long.  🙂  Discussion about good and bad started out with someone noting that he used to think along the lines of the proverb quoted, that bad things were accompanied or followed up by good things.  However, after a series of seemingly senseless tragedies and difficult circumstances, he had moved to a more cynical place, where bad things ‘just happen’, without a deeper purpose or greater good behind them.

I noted that I like to think that a big picture view could step outside the bad things that happen and see them as part of a larger pattern or whole, and that somehow and someway God has purposes in what happens, and that even out of bad can come good.  And this is a perspective that we are not privy to in this life.  But I also noted that I have a very limited amount of what you could call ‘bad experiences’, certainly a lack of tragedies in my life – and that I’m not the best one to talk from experience.

Someone else noted that it is cruel and perhaps an insult to tell someone who is in the midst of a hardship that it is ‘for a purpose’ or that they have to just step back to ‘see the good’.  It’s not an easy thing.

Maybe bad things just are.  We live in a broken world.  Bad things happen.

But I do believe that God often can use hard situations to bring about good things, but I don’t think those bad things happen expressly so that we can experience something good.

Most people felt the old proverb might be true in a very general sense, but certainly not as an axiom of how things always go.

Regarding the ancient superstitious use of texts of the Bible, it was noted that people still have many superstitions, and that we may even (mis)use the Bible that way today.

Regarding the third quote, from Peter Rollins’ book How (Not) to Speak of God, generated some interesting discussion.  Someone asked if we are ever able to pursue God without some selfish or ulterior motive.  Can we pursue God just for God himself?  Or do the benefits – meaning, life, salvation, peace of mind – always blur our motives, or are the motives themselves? Is it wrong to seek God out of selfish motives?  Is this the one place where hedonism is permitted, as no doubt John Piper and others would assert?

It was a nice, low-key evening, and we’ll save the other topics for next time!

A reading from the backside:
“The weakening of God into the world, described in the
Pauline language of emptying (kenosis), is paradigmatically
expressed in the Christian doctrine of the Incarnation, the
birth, but also the death of Jesus.  Kenosis is not a one-time-
only event occurring in the life and death of Jesus but the
ongoing history or tradition inaugurated by this event.  This
process is ‘secularization’, which means not the abandonment
or dissolution of God, but the ‘transcription’ of God into time
and history (the saeculum), thus a successor form of death of God
theology.  Kenosis, as the transcription, translation, or
transmission of God into the world, means establishing the
kingdom of God on earth.

For example, the commonplace complaint that the secular
world has taken the Christ out of Christmas and transcribed it
into “Happy Holidays” is to be viewed as still another success
on Christianity’s part.  For now the Incarnation has been
translated into a popular secular holiday in the West, in which
the spirit of generosity and goodwill among all people prevails.
During the “holidays” this “spirit” of love becomes general
among humankind, which is what in fact this doctrine actually
means: its application in the concrete reality of lived
experience.  The tolerant, nonauthoritarian and pluralistic
democratic societies in the West are the translation into real
political structures of the Christian doctrine of neighbor love.
When the transcendent God is “weakened” – or emptied – into
the world, it assumes the living form of Western cultural life.”
– John Caputo, After the Death of God

Post any of your own thoughts on the evening below!

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